Discourse One

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Discourse One

Postby SDP on Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:23 pm

Part of the personal study program with Rumi that helps more completely fathom the depths of his wisdom is sharing with others.

What are the most important things we learned from the discourse, or what are the questions it raised? Putting these into words often clarifies our own impressions. Listening to what the discourse meant to others can open up completely new insights and perspectives. This is the value of spiritual dialogue.

Feel free to jump in, add your thoughts, or read what others have shared. It can be a part of your personal study with Rumi, with a little help from his friends.

Thanks.

Doug.
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Re: Discourse One

Postby Jane on Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:15 pm

I think this discourse makes perfect sense.
The scholars and princes: learn for the love of learning, not to use scholarship to show off how learned you are or to curry favor from wealthy patrons. I think this also ties in with the discussion of mastership in the "Cultivating Your Spiritual Purpose" dialogue. The purpose of mastership is not to talk about it; a true master is too busy doing/being to spend time in idle talk. When a master does speak of mastership, it is to point the disciple in the direction of his own self-mastery. And so it is that a true scholar will point the prince toward mastership, whereas mastership doesn't enter at all into the picture with a fame-seeking pseudo-scholar.
I thought the part about the Prophet laughing at his captives was a great story. As I understand, Islam means submission to God, & I see this story as being all about surrender. Mohammad has surrendered to God; his attackers are resisting surrender, even after they've been vanquished and captured in battle. Mohammed calls upon them to surrender, explaining that he's trying to drag them into heaven even against their will (And that it would be a whole lot easier if they just quit fighting off him & God). Abbas tries to weasel out, Mohammad calls his bluff, and Abbas sees truth and the need for true surrender to God.
When Rumi brings this back to focus the amir, this hit home for me. All too often I go about my life doing things with my own strength, my own mind, and forgetting Spirit. Too often I get crosswise of divine will this way. When I remember to do it, submission to divine will works much better. Those times have taken me in directions I would have never thought of, and have made me use my weakest skills, not the strongest. The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad states that we serve best through our weaknesses -- because only then are we submitting to Spirit and allowing it to help and guide us.
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Re: Discourse One

Postby Doug Marman on Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:41 pm

Jane,

Thank you for your words. I loved everything you wrote, especially connecting it all to self-submission.

What you say, about the true scholar pointing the prince towards mastership, is a beautiful insight. That is surely the example Rumi was making, with his own discourse.

It is interesting to think about the other side of this, as well: A true prince, by visiting the scholar, helps to draw out wisdom from the scholar. That attitude of surrender and listening, by the prince, opens up and inspires the scholar.

The road to mastership does seem to be tied up in this interaction, both the giving and the surrender.

Thanks for sharing.

Doug.
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Re: Discourse One

Postby Ben on Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:06 pm

The bit on the prisoners wallowing and crying, we so often do this ourselves, we fail to see the Universe is moving us one more step towards knowing who we are. What looks like misery are really steps forward and if we could see it from this level we would be laughing like Mohammad. I liken it to someone donging us on the head and we don,t put a stop to it until our head is so bruised that we just can,t take any more. This seems to be the time where we start to move forward again, so all the dongs in a sense are encompassed in this forward movement. Just like the prisoners were given the opportunity to move on when their misery was the greatest. All the peoples wallowing and crying was in effect bringing them one step closer to the light of God, to the light Mohammed was revealing, through, being it.

Mohammed doesn't need these dongs, his relationship and confidence with the Divine is strong, he can see the reality and laugh and he is aware also of how powerful the traps are and how easily one can fall into them, so he prays; "Lord, show me the things as they are. You show a thing as fair and in reality it is ugly. You show a thing as ugly, and, in truth, it is beautiful. Show us everything just as it is, so that we will not fall into the snare." I think Rumi points out something very significant here, that if Mohammed prays to see the real and that if we overlook that someone of Mohammed's standing does this, then the traps will be there just waiting for us to fall into them, unless of course we also ask to see the real, in a way like Mohammed does. Rumi points out to the Amir who has fallen for these traps devised by God, that all this can be turned around, all he has to do is to let go or surrender, let go of all his own notions and ideas and surrender to the will of God, which I also percieve as, listening to inner wisdom, the voice of the heart, and not the voice of the head.

I liked and smiled at Jane's description of Abbas trying to weasel his way out. Just as Abbas showed the cunning of a weasel by hiding his possessions and pretending he had none, there is also the other side of a weasel, that when he senses something, he can be relied or tusted upon to find it. And this is what Mohammed could see in Abbas.

I've found what Doug has written here to be very interesting ,
"It is interesting to think about the other side of this, as well: A true prince, by visiting the scholar, helps to draw out wisdom from the scholar. That attitude of surrender and listening, by the prince, opens up and inspires the scholar."
A Master of last century called Ramana Maharshi was visited upon by many, anyone was invited to sit in his presence for a period of time everyday. It was reported that while people listened he would at times speak the jewels of wisdom that was coming through him but as soon as someone interupted him, he would at times, once again, move into the silence and say nothing, it may have been an hour or so before Ramana would start talking his jewels of wisdom again.
Listening seems to be one of the first requirements of a true prince.

There is so much that can be covered in this discourse, it certainly takes more than a few posts to cover it. Enjoyed reading the posts here and looking forward to the reading of other contributors. It is really worthwhile this sought of sharing, and giving, to find insight towards living in a relationship with the Divine like Rumi and Mohammud are. Much appreciated. Cheers. Ben
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Re: Discourse One

Postby Jane on Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:21 pm

Another thing in in the story of Mohammad and Abbas is how at first Abbas only saw Mohammed as a physical person: a kinsman and all that this relationship meant in their tribal society. After the exchange about Abbas's hidden wealth, Abbas was able to see Mohammad as more than that, as the Godman. That was when he was able to surrender.
It is so easy to look upon a Master as only a physical being, and focus on appearances or perceived faults. Only once we can see the God part of the Godman can we really begin to learn.
Jane
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Re: Discourse One

Postby Doug Marman on Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:35 pm

Jane,

Beautifully put.

In fact, Rumi makes very much the same point later in the discourses. Of course, he does so in his own unique way, but the point is exactly the same.

Thanks.

Doug.
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Re: Discourse One

Postby Ben on Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:00 am

How the Universe just smiles at what we say and write, and then sends into the world to greet us, the experience of really getting to understand the very thing we have put out. A bit of understanding or awareness started it all but the Divine plan wants us to fully understand and experience the thing that we are beginning to see. And so it is for what I wrote about Mohammad seeing the real and that he was able to laugh at it all, that is, to laugh with compassion behind it . I might add it didn't start out a laughing matter for me, far from it, but the laugh did come eventually and so much more.

I have found this with nearly every post I've ever posted on a forum and as well with some other peoples posts that have rang a bell, it is a marvel to see this pattern forming and it doesn't need to be a forum, sometimes it may be insight given by or to a friend or insight found in a book and so forth. Lately I've written about laughing at difficult experiences, gaining confidence, and surrendering and have also read about some of these things by others that rang a chord for me and before I know it I am being put to the test with it all. And what wonderful difficult tests they have been. To come out the end of it with beautiful silence and love and empathy and all the other great things that happen to us when we open ourselves to it All. And can't forget, being able to laugh at it all.

Only up to chapter 3 in the Rumi book, the experience of chapter one has kept me too busy for anything else. Cheers
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Re: Discourse One

Postby farshid on Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:15 am

I agree with Jane.

This discourse actually is for clarifying the position of a real scholar. At this discourse, Rumi impressed that a scholar is too busy to spend time with people that have more free time.( Symbolism : princes!)
Real scholars are seekers of infinite truth so it can’t be find in relationship with princes.( symbol of materialist) ;)

and at the other hand, princes (symbols of materialist) are empty of wisdom and they need scholar’s wisdom.
I love these words: God’s comfort no one despairs, except the unbelievers.
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